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You should go vegan. As a lifelong vegetarian, it will be easier than you think, since you're already used to resisting the temptation of foods with animal ingredients. While it's easy to imagine that dairy and egg industries don't require killing animals, they're only economically viable if they do kill animals.

As for cheering up, remember that being vegetarian and vegan does make a large difference at the individual level, not just at a collective level. Every chicken you don't eat is practically a full animal that didn't have to suffer. The animal agriculture industry does react to demand, and on average, you're individual effect is at least equal to the animals you would otherwise consume.



I'd like to argue that while you are right for supermarket meat and animal products, you might try having a look around your village, if you live near/in one. I buy eggs from a guy in town who runs a chicken coop next the village pond, which I am free to observe/feed, and can be certain no chickens are killed in the process of producing those eggs.


I don't want to get into a long debate, but even backyard chickens often have problems.

For one, while the chickens aren't abused while they lay eggs, are they killed when they stop laying eggs regularly, after about 2 years? Chickens live for up to 12 years, but only lay eggs regularly for around 2 to 4. It's possible they are raised for their full lifespan, but it's something to ask about, nonetheless.

Second, roughly for every laying hen purchased, there was a male chick that had no economic value, so it was killed shortly after it was sexed. This is done by hen breeders and is outside the control of those who actually keep the hens, short of not buying the hens in the first place.


I'm sure there have been chickens that lived to 12 years old, but most breeds I know of live 5-8 years. Saying that chickens live for up to 12 years is like saying humans live up to 130 years. Yes, it happens, but the majority die in what, their 70's or 80's?

I'm not sure what you want to do about roosters. I'd be willing to bet most male jungle fowl die young in the wild too due to lack of flock protection and battles for territory and mates. A more humane way to kill them would be better, but the fact that they don't go to some farm somewhere that somehow has space to keep them more or less separated as they generally don't get along with other roosters is kind of just a fact of life. That would be quite the lonely life when you think about it too. The same way breeding stallions are often miserable and starved for equine interaction.


> but most breeds I know of live 5-8 years.

Yeah up to 12 was meant to communicate a rough upper bound, not typical lifespans. Same for the 4 years or regular egg production figure, upper bound. The important part is that hen lifespans are significantly longer than their egg laying years, and all commercial and many individual farmers don't want to spend money on a hen that doesn't lay eggs.

> I'm not sure what you want to do about roosters.

Well, we could not breed them in the first place, since we know they'll need to be immediately killed.


If you had said 8 or 9 years, that would have been a reasonable way to communicate that they live longer than they lay eggs. When you pull out a number like 12 years for an animal that can die of old age at 6, you're either misinformed or exaggerating to make your argument stronger.

I think we're going to be at odds with each other on livestock no matter what because of different views on death. If an animal lives a long, rough, miserable life and dies of old age, that to me is an awful thing to do to an animal. If an animal lives a pleasant but short life and is well treated before it is humanely killed, I see no tragedy in that. My problem with eating meat is that the animal's short life is not a good one in the vast majority of cases. However, I have no problem at all with that life being ended humanely well before they reach old age. Death in itself is not a tragedy. Living in poor conditions or past the point where you can function without pain absolutely is.


I'm going to drop the age point. You're assigning more significance to the specific number than I intended.

> Death in itself is not a tragedy. Living in poor conditions or past the point where you can function without pain absolutely is.

Do you hold the same stance when it come to human life?

Or what about the penguins in the article? They lived typical penguin lives and were presumably killed relativly quickly.


I don't know how replies and edits work on this site. I didn't see most of your post when I replied.

The problem I have with what happened to these penguins is how wasteful it was. Relatively little was produced and everything else was wasted. And using a living creature as fuel to render its compatriots into a low-quality, low-yield product. The fact that they died isn't really the upsetting thing to me here. It's the wasteful nature of the process and the impact on the species and the environment.

I'll happily, very happily in fact, eat bison. They're delicious. I would have no problem killing and butchering one myself. Shooting them en masse and leaving the carcasses to rot as happened early in the history of the US is beyond repulsive to me.


Yes. At least my own for sure.


Well that’s interesting to know. I think it is possible to do backyard chickens for eggs ethically, then. Just get an equal number of male and female chickens (gotta keep the females separate when still laying?) and keep them as pets long after they’re done laying.

Eggs as a delicacy rather than as a major part of the diet.


Roosters are aggressive and territorial. You can sometimes house them together, but it's more difficult than hens and even hens have some pretty nasty pecking order disputes if they aren't raised together. Hens do not have to be kept separate while laying as long as you don't mind fertilized eggs. However, roosters can be dangerously aggressive towards hens in captivity. Over breeding and tearing out of feathers are not unusual and can make a hen's life pretty miserable. In extreme circumstances it is deadly to the hen. They can also be overprotective of their hens and attack their owners mercilessly when it comes time to clean the pen and collect eggs. The backyard chicken keepers I know do not keep roosters unless they're needed to protect the hens from predators.


Oh, interesting that roosters actually have more than a (small) social benefit to the hens in providing protection from predators. I thought it was mostly negative (I was aware of roosters attacking hens, etc). I wonder if more, um, sociable roosters could be bred? Maybe just neuter them so you don’t have fertilized eggs and you reduce their aggression? But I suppose that might reduce their effectiveness as a defense against predators.

All very interesting, thanks!

EDIT: apparently there are more calm rooster breeds: “If you want to choose breeds with a reputation for calm or friendly roosters, Faverolles are my favorite, and Barred Rocks are also very nice. Orpingtons and Cochins and Brahmas also have a reputation as nice, calm birds. Many people love Silkie roosters, too.” https://www.mypetchicken.com/backyard-chickens/chicken-help/...




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