As a related aside, split pieces of wood--so the holder could check and see the pieces matched up--were also used as an anti-fraud device (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tally_stick). Apparently, these pieces of wood are were we get the term "stock."
In case you ever wondered why the word for an ownership share is the same word as "stick, trunk, block of wood, or post" (Germanic / Dutch / Old English), this is apparently it.
Second aside, 100s of years of such wooden stocks were stored in the British Houses of Parliament. They were ordered cleaned out, but, apparently the cleaners got over zealous, and the stocks caught on fire with disastrous results.
So these non-fungible blocks that proved you had a stake... could you maybe trace back the transaction history for a piece of property using some kind of chain of these blocks?
I would guess consuming the amount of wood required to implement such a transaction history might end up proving to have disastrous results on the environment.
I bet a lot of the advocates of these block chains would claim that the lack of sophistication and cumbersomeness was an advantage.
You'd say things like "if it ever caught on in a big way, what's to stop banks or even governments issuing block-denominated securities, causing inflation? Would people put blocks in banks for safe-keeping, where they'd just end up recreating the fractional reserve system you claim these blocks avoid?".
And advocates would say "no, that won't happen, people would like to keep a hold of their own blocks, no-one would want an IOU from a bank if they could physically hold their very own block instead".
So you're saying that you first need to found your startup as a dystopian venture with a secure facility that needs vandelising, then rebrand your company around the art created?
I'm thinking something like "Uber for cosmetics testing", where people can sign up to test cosmetics on their household pets in a distributed marketplace.
I didn’t say I wanted banksy to make art for me. I want him to make up a name. It was poignant. It used real words with all of the letters, and not some trendy drop the vowels BS
In the book Gates of Fire, it's mentioned that split pieces of wood were used as "dog tags" for soldiers.
Each solider would write his name on the stick, break it in half, toss one half into a basket and tie the other stick to themselves.
At the end of the battle, any stick still in the basket that wasn't claimed was clearly a "casualty". The sticks tied to the individuals could also be used for identification.
I’ve never understood - what do you do if the tally sticks don’t match? You just know there’s a dispute but it doesn’t resolve the dispute does it? So what next?
From what I can tell (this is not my field), at least as concerns the English state, the tally stick was divided into the "stock," which was kept by the state, and the "foil," which went with the individual.
It explains that they were used to record money that was deposited, essentially a receipt, by removing wood from the then original stick before it was split into the stock/foil. My guess (again not my area) is that it primarily functioned this way:
1. The removed wood representing the debt. I have no confirmation, but I would expect the stock/foil was created in view of the depositor who understood its markings.
2. The entity seeking repayment would not be able to fake their receipt, presumably to indicate they had deposited more money than they had (i.e., by removing wood from their foil). If they tried, the stock would still have that wood present, but the other grooves and grain of the stock/foil would align. The state would easily be able to tell that someone had subtracted wood from their foil.
3. The state could, of course, destroy the stock and claim its nonexistence, but information of that would, presumably, escape and others would be less likely to lend to the state. It appears there is writing on the stock/foil, so perhaps that served a secondary verification function (e.g., handwriting comparison or reference to a paper ledger)?
[EDIT: The process of making English tallies was laid out in the "The Dialogue Concerning the Exchequer. circa 1180" (https://avalon.law.yale.edu/medieval/excheq.asp. It describes making these tally sticks in the section "As to the Maker of Tallies." Unfortunately, I do not see the details of dispute resolution in that document. But, I only skimmed it.]
Another old process (ancient?) a teacher of mine once mentioned is that of always having three witnesses to any official transaction (usually one being a Notary to record) and two other people present.
Having three people present is a way to protect against he said/she said.
You only need 1 witness for that. The first two are the parties.
3 is an enhancement for redundancy. Habit an odd number is a false confidence. Think about it: what happens if you have 4 witnesses? They could tie? How is that worse, as it adds more information that maybe 2 of the first 3 are lying or wrong?
Having just the notary there relies on trusting the notary to be an impartial party, with just one witness in addition to the two parties there's only one point of verification meaning only one person you have to corrupt to be able to lie about what happened. Bringing in more people increases the size of the conspiracy required to lie about the transaction.
My understanding is that these were used as what we currently refer to as treasuries. I.e., debt that the government owes to an investor. So, if you want to lend the government some money, you get half a piece of wood with some notches indicating how much you lent. Then when it is time to collect you go to the government show them your piece of wood and if it matches you get your money plus whatever interest.
So if they do not match the government simply does not give you your money.
So it is in the best interest of the government to get a rasp and file some of of their side of the block. Nothing will match and thus they don’t have to pay.
If the government wants to default on its debts it can generally just do so. People lend money to the government because they choose to trust it for various reasons.
If the government decided to say tomorrow that $100 bills with serial numbers AB1234567000-AB12334567999 were counterfeit and should not be accepted, what do you think would stop them?
Maybe in the short term, but long term it's best for a government to pay off its debts. Who would lend money to the government if it was well known that they will never pay back?
That doesn't answer the question, because the point of the two halves is that they are independently recording the contract.
If we use a split stick to record how much money you owe me, and I simply add more marks to mine, to pretend you owe me more, it's obvious that I'm cheating. But if I simply split a brand-new stick and add marks on it, then our sticks won't match up at all. How will a court know which is the original?
Presumably they had some way to sign them? After all, that's why both parties sign both contracts today. If you go change yours, I still have your signature on mine.
Let's say we cut notches perpedicular to where the split will be, and then split through the notches. If you cut more notches in your side of the wood, it will be obvious that you've done so - the two sides will fit together perfectly in shape and in grain, but one side will have extra notches. It's not like I could have filled in the notches on my piece.
But if I simply throw away my half and make a new half, a court will have no way of knowing which was the original. (Unless each half was signed by both parties.)
> But if I simply throw away my half and make a new half
Your new half would not match together in the "split" part of the stick, so one could tell that /someone/ made a new half, but not necessarily which party was the forger.
You could split wood more than 2 ways, then register one of the pieces. Or a system of splitting multiple pieces of wood, leaving some for registration. No idea if this is what anyone has done.
But if you have a system where you can register the stick then why do you need the stick? Just register the contract with this, apparently trusted, 3rd party.
I dont understand. Its straight up told that the party giving the money had the longer stick, meaning the party with most to lose had to match the longer stick
If I give you $100, and we mark it on a stick, and then split it and give me the longer one, and then I throw away my half and split a new one that says you owe me $200, how do we resolve it when the halves come together and don't match? I say you made a new half-stick, and you say I did.
Both parties in a contract can have an incentive to lie.
Firstly, if I lend you money, we split sticks, then I throw away my stick and get a new stick that says I lent you more money.
Secondly, if you lend me money, we split sticks, then I throw away my stick and get a new stick that says you lent me less money.
In both cases you're claiming my stick is clearly counterfeit because it doesn't match yours and I'm (falsely, but nobody knows that except the other party) claiming your stick is clearly counterfeit because it doesn't match mine.
What happens next? We're no better off than if we only had a verbal record and were disagreeing. So what is the point in the sticks?
If the two sticks don't match, then the two parties didn't mutually authenticate and then nothing further happens.You can't even say there's a dispute. You can't say anything.
This is a (modern, mistaken) conjoining of two similar phrases
- drawing the short stick (where you hold five sticks / matches, in your hand one of which is cut short but no one can tell cos they are held in someone's hand)
- Grabbing the shitty end of the stick. Which seems fairly obvious if a stick was used for any clearing out style work.
(there seems to be no obvious "short end" of a stick)
No. It comes from choosing somebody at random from a whole group. Get thin sticks (branches from any tree), cut them all around 10 cm and one of them cut it shorter (like 5 cm for example). Now hold the entire bunch of sticks in your hand, carefully to have them same height at visible end (hiding in your hand which one is the short one) and let everybody except yourself draw a stick at random. Whoever gets the short one is the one that would do the task at hand. If everybody draws all long sticks you're the one with the short one at the end. Hence the phrasing.
In case you ever wondered why the word for an ownership share is the same word as "stick, trunk, block of wood, or post" (Germanic / Dutch / Old English), this is apparently it.
Second aside, 100s of years of such wooden stocks were stored in the British Houses of Parliament. They were ordered cleaned out, but, apparently the cleaners got over zealous, and the stocks caught on fire with disastrous results.